What do you think about this issue? I think it will debated for years to come as more and more people are coming to America from all over the world! Here is the story:
Cheesesteak Shop Owner Defends Policy
By BOB LENTZ,
AP
Posted: 2007-12-15 12:00:42
Filed Under: Nation News
PHILADELPHIA (Dec. 15) – A small sign that initiated an English-only ordering policy at a famous cheesesteak shop was likened to signs of the Jim Crow era during a public hearing over whether the policy was discriminatory. The shop’s owner said the posting was never meant to be offensive.
Joe Vento, the owner of Geno’s Steaks, defended his policy before the Philadelphia Commission on Human Relations, which filed the discrimination complaint.
“This country is a melting pot, but what makes it work is the English language,” Vento told the commission during a hearing that lasted more than six hours Friday. “I’m not stupid. I would never put a sign out to hurt my business.”
In October 2005, Vento posted two small signs at his shop in a diverse South Philadelphia neighborhood, telling customers, “This is AMERICA: WHEN ORDERING ‘PLEASE SPEAK ENGLISH.'”
He testified that he posted the sign because of concerns over the debate on immigration reform and the increasing number of people from the area could not order in English.
Camille Charles, a sociology professor at the University of Pennsylvania, said Vento’s signs harken back to the Jim Crow era when “Whites Only” postings were prevalent. She cited huge growth in the foreign born, Asian and Latino population in the area surrounding Geno’s from 1980 to 2007.”
The signs give a feeling of being unwelcome and being excluded,” Charles said.
After extensive publicity over the sign in June 2006, the commission began investigating whether Vento was violating the city’s Fair Practices Ordinance. That law prohibits discrimination in employment, public accommodation and housing on the basis of race, ethnicity or sexual orientation.
In February, the commission found probable cause against Geno’s Steaks for discrimination, alleging that the policy discourages customers of certain backgrounds from eating there.
Here is the full story.
The questions are:
– Does a restaurant owner have the right to ask his customers to order in English if that is the language he speaks?
– Should all refugees and immigrants be required to learn basic communicative English?
– If this is a violation, then why would businesses which similar signs in Russian, Spanish, Chinese, Korean, Polish or any other languages be allowed? Is it not a double standard? Is this reversed discrimination?
I would love to hear some legal points about this issue from lawyers who read this blog since I find it very interesting.
Joe Vento is, I assert, out of order here. The only problem is the phrase “This is America.”
I believe that more people in California speak Spanish than English, so it’s an interesting question as to what are the ‘official, recognised languages’ in CA.
For pragmatic reasons, governments have to define what languages they officially recognise. This is an issue in S Africa, and even more so in the European Community.
Joe Vento’s sign should read:
“I regret that I only speak English, and that therefore, the ordering process may be slower and higher-risk if other languages are used.”
Oh – I don’t understand languages in Cyrillic, and ordered a meal for four by mistake once. It was memorable.
There is (currently) no law against discriminating against use of language. Since the owner is not breaking the law, he should be free to post what he wants in his own business, on his own private property. As long as he’s not violating laws like the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (which says nothing about language), he has the FIRST AMENDMENT right to say what he wants and conduct this business the way he likes.
What about all those signs in stores that say, “WE RESERVE THE RIGHT TO REFUSE SERVICE TO ANYONE”!
What about restaurants that say “no shoes, no shirt, no service”! Hey, they are discriminatinag against the shoeless!
What about high-end restaurants that have a dress code?
If enough people disagree with the restaurant owner, he will go out of the business. Simple as that. If people don’t mind or even like it, he will stay in the business.
Just leave him alone.
Ponder this:
Why are people allowed to take written drivers exams in states like California in their native tongue when all the street signs (e.g. highway emergency notices that are vital to safety) are in English???
Why is it that in some Chinese restaurant, there are many menu items posted on sheets of paper on the wall that are only written in Chinese?
Is that discriminatory to non-Chinese reading customers??
– Does a restaurant owner have the right to ask his customers to order in English if that is the language he speaks?
Yes. And they have every right to tell him he is an idiot, in whatever language they prefer. And then he can tell them to leave. This is America, as he says. We have the right to be nationalistic morons, as long as we don’t discriminate on the basis of race, religion, creed, national origin, gender, did I miss any? Since he doesn’t care where people are from, or what they look like, only what language they’re speaking (to him) then it is an acceptable level of idiocy for us to tollerate from him.
– Should all refugees and immigrants be required to learn basic communicative English?
No, but it should be mandatory that they be given free access to English classes, because it does benefit everybody to have a common language.
One problem with a mandate, in addition to the other issues (such as, not everybody is good enough at learning languages) many Americans speak English so poorly, I have trouble understanding them. There are a lot of Asian immigrants here on the west coast, and sometimes it’s hard to understand their accents, but I have an easier time with it than most people I meet from Georgia. If I phone a call center, I’d rather get one in India than in Georgia, because while both accents can be difficult, at least the Indians use close to correct grammar, so I can reasonably guess most words I don’t understand.
It would be absurd for people in one region, to go to another region and force the people there to use a “correct” dialect. So obviously, it is impossible to then start grading people based on their national origin, and allow bad English only from certain countries of origin (USA). That would be a violation of constitutional protections against discrimination based on national origin, so it’s a “no brainer.”
– If this is a violation, then why would businesses which similar signs in Russian, Spanish, Chinese, Korean, Polish or any other languages be allowed? Is it not a double standard? Is this reversed discrimination?
It’s not a violation, and so yes, you have just as much of a right to open a Hungarian restaurant and require orders to be given in Hungarian; as long as you are only requiring the language, and not the nationality.
I sometimes go to restaurants that don’t “require” another language, but don’t have anybody there who speaks English.
As far as the question of if it is “discrimination,” in a technical sense it is discrimination, but against the language, not the person.
And any discrimination not prohibited is allowed. So legally it falls under the same category that a dress code would. A dress code might discriminate against sandals and jeans, but that’s allowed.
I’ve seen “French Clubs” where there is a group that goes out once a week, and requires everybody participating to speak only French the whole time. The purpose is to practice their French. So there are even uses of this right that are not idiotic. 😉
This is America indeed and America does not have an official language. Apparently this guy does not know where he stands.
CHECK THIS OUT FROM WIKIPEDIA
Language
Although the United States has no official language at the federal level, English is the national language.
In 2003, about 215 million, or 82% of the population aged five years and older, spoke only English at home. Spanish, spoken by over 10% of the population at home, is the second most common language and the most widely taught foreign language.[140][141] Immigrants seeking naturalization must know English. Some Americans advocate making English the country’s official language, as it is in at least twenty-eight states.[142] Both Hawaiian and English are official languages in Hawaii by state law.[143] Several insular territories also grant official recognition to their native languages, along with English: Samoan and Chamorro are recognized by Samoa and Guam, respectively; Carolinian and Chamorro are recognized by the Northern Mariana Islands; Spanish is an official language of Puerto Rico. While neither has an official language, New Mexico has laws providing for the use of both English and Spanish, as Louisiana does for English and French.[144]
The restaurant owner’s policy may be violating Title II of the Civil rights Act of 1964, which can be found here.
Scroll down to see Title II.
The problem with the policy is that it can be construed to be discriminatory on the basis of national origin. For the person who argues that the 1964 Act does not explicitly discuss the use of a foreign language in a restaurant (true), in general, legislation does not need to be so explicit for a court to deem whether or not the legislation applies. This is the concept of broad construction v. narrow construction.
My own opinion as what should be done is also to let the free market reign. If the people in the neighborhood don’t like it, they are free to boycott his restaurant.
Now a days America has to be tolerant toward every minority group in every aspect of race religion and sexual orientation. It seems as if the United States of America is the only country in the world required to do so. The rights of Blacks, Hispanic, and gays are the only people that seem to be represented though. What about the TRUE American natives? The American Indian tribes that have been nearly wiped out, by small pox, raping of their land and main food suppy (the buffalo). Millions of native Indians were herded up and put on one reservation after the next as the English settlers broke one treaty after the next until the Indian Nation live in poverty conditions on a par with the poorest countries in the world! They cant threaten to boycott that restraunt or any other American business with the threat of these companies losing their business and thus losing money since there simply isnt enough of the Redman left! So I guess they dont matter only activists with politcal clout for the few agendas with power ($$$). What a travesty for the real American natives who have no rights anymore.
Assuming the restaurant staff don’t speak all the world’s languages, the sign’s literal point was moot and clearly intended to make an anti-immigrant political statement.
Since political speech enjoys the highest first amendment protection according to a few centuries of Supreme Court jurisprudence, I suppose there’s a strong argument that the sign is legal, even if patently offensive. On the other hand, acting on the sign by removing customers for attempting to speak in their native tongue would not be legal.
Incidentally, the sign stating “WE RESERVE THE RIGHT TO REFUSE SERVICE TO ANYONE!” originated as an angry response to forced segregation, replacing the “WHITES ONLY” signs in the South and elsewhere. Some of the places that display that sign today intend the original meaning, and I think Joe Vento’s sign is in that tradition.
JB
According to statics about linguistic assimlation I’ve read, chances are that Joe Vento’s immigrant Italian ancestors only spoke Italian. It was their children and their descendants who learned English.
I don’t agree that the sign makes an anti-immigrant statement, because that would assume that immigrants do no speak English. The relevant city ordinance states “prohibits discrimination in employment, public accommodation and housing on the basis of race, ethnicity or sexual orientation.” As far as I can tell, the sign does not discriminate based on any of those factors. For example, the sign would have the same effect on a white immigrant from Germany as it does a black immigrant from Africa.
P.S.: just to make clear, I am an immigrant myself and my whole family made sure to learn English as quickly as possible before moving here to the U.S.
What do you call a person that speaks two languages?
-Bilingual.
What do you call a person that speaks THREE or more languages?
-Polylingual.
What do you call a person that speaks only ONE language?
-AMERICAN…!!
Should all refugees and immigrants be required to learn basic communicative English?
Well, if an immigrant want to naturalized to become a US Citizen, the general requirements (from the uscis.gov site) are:
* a period of continuous residence and physical presence in the United States;
* residence in a particular USCIS District prior to filing;
*an ability to read, write, and speak English;
* a knowledge and understanding of U.S. history and government;
* good moral character;
* attachment to the principles of the U.S. Constitution; and,
* favorable disposition toward the United States.
Other “discriminatory” restaurant practices:
– Kids Eat Free
discriminates against the child-less
– Senior discounts
discriminates against the young
– “Ladies’ Night”
discriminates against men
If the owner of the restaurant speaks only English, the argument is moot. All he as to say is “Next”
I believe it is more important for an immigrant to speak English in order to gain citizneship than to know who the 1st President of the United States was. People ought to be able to operate their own business how they want, as long as it’s not hurting anyone…knowing the language is very important in any country, let alone the U.S.
America has no official language. However, to solve this issue Congress must pass it and the president sign it, for English to become the official language of the USA.
It should be. Just as English is the official language in England.
I think the restaurant owner has a right to post such a sign. It is NOT the same as Jim Crow laws and it is not at all unreasonable to expect persons to have at least a rudimentary knowledge of English if they reside within the U.S.
And, regarding the Civil Rights Act of 1964, it is just as logical (and it’s correct to say) that Affirmative Action is a violation of that law due to its blatent racial preference. The Act clearly states that no one shall be dicriminated against on the basis of race.
So, if one can construe the restaurant owner’s sign as a violation of the ’64 Civil Rights Act, then Affirmative Action is clearly a violation of this law and, thus, unconstitutional. However, it isn’t about what’s right, wrong, or ethical.
It’s about political correctness.
The restaurant owner has a right to do this. It is not a violation of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
I see no problem whatsoever with this (false) issue!
And since it has been (well) discussed by the previous writers, I just leave these few verses from the “Tao Te Ching”… ancient wisdom always new!!!
If you want to be a great leader,
you must learn to follow the Tao.
Stop trying to control.
Let go of fixed plans and concepts,
and the world will govern itself.
The more prohibitions you have,
the less virtuous people will be.
The more weapons you have,
the less secure people will be.
The more subsidies you have,
the less self-reliant people will be.
Therefore the Master says:
I let go of the law,
and people become honest.
I let go of economics,
and people become prosperous.
I let go of religion,
and people become serene.
I let go of all desire for the common good,
and the good becomes common as grass.
Tao Te Ching, 57
The idea is to trade things. All blog entries should then be multi-posted in all world languages by law in order to achieve true fairness, if this is the case. For instance, why is this particular post just in english, or this response to the post?
This entire argument is absolutely stupid and beyond common sense. Anyone visiting his store also sees the signs “Please know what you want when ordering (specifically cheese types) because the line moves very fast.” It gives instructions on how to order because the shop is so busy and the line does move very very quickly. There’s no standing around in line waiting once you’ve ordered. Seriously. And having someone who doesn’t speak English trying to order by speaking to someone who doesn’t speak their language slows down the process in a very fast moving line.
What bothers me the most about the article is that it’s not what the sign SAYS that they’re arguing – it’s FEELINGS the sign invokes. The attorney SAID that – and the professor from Penn also said “It makes someone feel intimidated” – and they’re trying to apply motive and thought processes that just flat out aren’t there.
Get over it.
I would say that this is a free country. People should be able to speak and order in any language they like to. Just because the founding fathers spoke english does not mean we all have to now. If the owner of the store does not like it he can open up a shop in another country. If he decides to stay here he should be made to suffer the consequences, jail or a stiff fine if he refuses to take an order.
Does a restaurant owner have the right to ask his customers to order in English if that is the language he speaks?
Yes.
Should all refugees and immigrants be required to learn basic communicative English
If they want to be understood, yes.
If this is a violation, then why would businesses which similar signs in Russian, Spanish, Chinese, Korean, Polish or any other languages be allowed? Is it not a double standard? Is this reversed discrimination?
It is double standard and forcing other than English language in a basically English speaking country is reversed discrimination.
—————-
Susan, you came from Hungary, and so have I. Without an effort, without going to any school, just simply by talking to English speaking people, trying to read newspapers, watching TV, I learned sufficient English plenty enough to get around, have myself understood, function on a basic level without any problem, in less than a year.
I know it is more than possible. Those people who live in USA for many years, and still can’t speak English, they can’t, because they never wanted to learn in the first place.
Regardless all of the above, the key point is the “yes, but which language” question. Why do English speaking Americans must accommodate to Spanish, while they don’t have to accommodate to Hungarian, and many other languages? It is indeed a blatant double standard and reversed discrimination.
We all know however, why this is even an issue: it is the hispanic mass illegal immigration, and when those become legal, they become voters. So, all politicians are busy to kiss their collective …..you know what. And it is not bad enough that by now yearly couple of millions step over to USA illegally, now Americans and all those foreigners who took that small effort to learn English, must also learn Spanish, because they are lazy to learn English.
No, sorry, I am not a racists, I am just a foreigner who learned English at age 26, I think I have the right to speak my mind about those who don’t want to.
Gabor
” He testified that he posted the sign because of concerns over the debate on immigration reform”. In other words, he’s saying ‘you’re not welcome here’ to all of us immigrants. If he was trying to be welcoming, he’d hire multilingual staff and post a sign in the window ‘hablamos espanol’ like many other businesses do. He chooses to discriminate instead.
OK, it’s his business and he can run it the way he wants. The real question here is if this will go further- will racists ‘concerned over the debate on immigration’ i.e. unable to tolerate anyone being different than themselves, take it to the next level and start banning languages other than English from being spoken at workplace, public office, schools; will signs in other languages be banned one day…will all the poor people who got here and haven’t yet learned English well, be let known that they’re subhumans in this ‘one nation under God’ ?
A couple of things. “This is America: When ordering please speak in English” is idiotic because America includes Mexico.
Another idiotic statement:
“illegal immigrants aren’t Americans”. Another thing: just because you have poor communication skills and can’t communicate with someone who doesn’t know the language is not good enough to say all immigrants should learn the language: other countries do well communicating to American tourists even when they don’t speak English. It’s called politeness which I guess is severely lacking in “America”, as well as something called “intelligence”. Second of all those immigrants have to be getting money from somewhere to buy the food, which means other Americans can communicate with them perfectly fine and would hire them over some perfectly English-speaking bums. Third of all, while we’re at it, let’s ban the sales of all food to people who don’t speak English: they’ll learn English real fast or fall over by the wayside of hunger.
As a computer, I strongly feel all people should speak in binary code. 000111100011 !
0001100011001000100101!
001000100. Ha. Ha! 0011000!
0000111001!
00100100101!
If Americans would only be allowed to order in the native language, then they would be starving during their holidays abroad!
So I would say, yeah!: let’s keep them on their continent until them “superior” beings will be able to speak more then just English!
1) There isn’t less politeness in the United States than in other countries.
2) There is no lack of intelligence in the United States, on the contrary: since 1970, more than 70% of the Nobel Prizes in Physics and Chemistry are Americans, and more than 80% in Medicine ; more than 35% of Americans have an university diploma, whereas only 25% of the Europeans do ; and so on…
3) In a lot of countries, most of the people don’t speak a single word of english, even in Europe (Spain, France, Greece, and so on…).
I suppose that the guy has the right to only accept orders requested in English. The problem is that his approach is rude, mean spirited and assumes a representation of what “This is America” means that isn’t necessarily shared by all US Citizens.
If there is no lack of intelligence among Americans, then how come since 1970 most of the top chess players are not Americans?
“This is America: When ordering please speak in English” is idiotic because America includes Mexico.
–No. “North America” is the entire continent. “America” = The United States….hence, “The United States of America.”
check your facts.
I think the fellow has every right to post the sign. It is not illegal. But, it isn’t good for business. However, for those that think he’s being “racist” against immigrants, I don’t think this is so.
First, immigration reform is about answering one question: What to do with the millions of undocumented illegal aliens in this country. If you go through the process of naturalization legally, there is no problem. It’s not the easiest process and is quite frustrating but something must be done. The border between the U.S. and Mexico is a “ticking time bomb.” It’a not a question of “if” terrorists will use the mess at the border to bring material into the U.S. (chemical, biological, etc) and use it to kill …it’s a question of “when.”
Just look at the border between Israel and Palestine. There is heavy security and people are checked intensely. Yet, the rest of the world doesn’t (for the most part) view such actions as “racist”.
It’s a matter of national self-preservation.
If anyone would actually take the time to really READ the content of immigration reform bills in Congress, then you will see that they aren’t as harsh as you make them out to be.
No is saying stop immigration. The “reform” in “Immigration reform” is meant to make immigrants go through the process of naturalization legally…as so many have.
Several countries in Europe have very strict standards regarding immigration. Yet, are they “racist?” I don’t think so.
In a world that is filled with terrorists and people that want to murder people in masses, especially innocent Americans, then it is the job and role of government to protect its citizens. All nations work on the basis of self-preservation and immigration reform is not “racist” it’s merely an attempt to control the huge number of undocumented people from entering the country illegally. That’s it.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with people coming to this country if they do so legally. We are a nation of immigrants. Yet, due to the unfortunate reality of terrorism in todays world, the U.S. cannot just open our southern border for all the world to walk in and not ask any questions or do anything to make those individuals go through the legal process of naturalization.
Since the U.S. has no official language, then the restaurant owner has the right to request orders in English. Again, I think it’s bad business practice but legally, he has a right to make a political statement. It’s called freedom of speech.
If you can burn a flag (which should never have been considered “freedom of speech”), then this guy can put up a sign to make a political statement.
If you don’t like it, then don’t visit that restaurant.
And there exists rude and harsh people in every nation. Just go to France and speak only English. See how rude you are treated.
Ever heard the old adage “When in Rome, be as the Romans?”
Interpret that as you will, but I think if you plan to STAY in the U.S., you should be required to know at least some English. It will make your life easier as you will not need a translator.
Now, if you’re just a tourist, that’s different. So, any comparison with American tourists in other nations is absurd.
That’s beside the point. The guy is making a political statement and in this country you have a right to do that. Until either Congress makes English the official language or the courts say the guy can’t post such a sign (which will not happen), then he can do it.
I think it’s silly for him to do it but he has the right to say and make a point about immigration reform. YOu don’t have to agree with it.
But, you have to live with the fact that freedom of expression (even hateful speech) is protected by the Supreme Court’s interpretation of the “Freedom of Speech” clause in the Constitution.
It simply isn’t unreasonable to request that those who plan to stay in the U.S. know some basic English. It only can help them. “racism” is such an overused word.
I wonder how well a restaurant holding a sign “orders may only be given standing on your head” would work.
This is why I love this blog. Good logical and even legal points are made with civility and respect without descending into the morass of the emotionally undisciplined.
Yes, I am an immigrant to America. Yes, I learned to speak English and yes, I think every immigrant should learn to speak English. Finally, yes, I think that Joe Vento has a right to have that sign. No, you don’t have to patronize it if you disagree.
To “Anonymous” December 15, 2007 9:53:00 PM CST:
Chess and intelligence are not related.
The greatest scientists (Einstein, Heisenberg, Bohr, Planck…) didn’t play chess. Same for the greatest writers (James Joyce, Marcel Proust, Franz Kafka…) and so on.
On the contrary, the greatest chess players are usually very weak and ignorant in all the important fields of the human knowledge: they have discovered nothing, and created nothing in science, literature, and so on.
Chess is only a combinatorial skill. It can be interesting and enjoyable, but only for what it is: a game.
The best proof that chess isn’t related to intelligence is the fact that, nowadays, computers (which are completely dumb machines) are better than men at chess, whereas no computer has ever been able to discover anything in science, or to create a literary text.
Perhaps Joe’s sign isn’t phrased in the most cordial manner. Fair enough, however a tangent along the converse of this argument may help put things in perspective for some:
If requiring customers to order in english is discriminatory, then the law would be enforcing the need for any place of business within the US to have the capability to communicate with anyone in any possible language – spoken or not.
Does the above seem realistic and constitutionally sound to you? I would hope not.
This whole debacle shows how common sense usually can indicate the real root cause of a problem. In this case, it’s someone drumming up yet another frivolous lawsuit for which the plaintiff should be held accountable when it’s dismissed.
This is Sparta!