Yancey,
I am well aware of the word transpose used in chess.Either I didn’t get the word at hand or I felt “transpose” refers to the position arrived at.I was simply referring to changing the order of the moves which did not result in the same final position.
Gilberto,
In addition to the two solutions given, there are two more replacing the action of B/R by Q in the final move. All are equally fast.(Thank God! You did not use the word fastest, if so all are fastest)
In my quest to find a position that the engines are unable to find the right move, well, I found one.
8/1pN4r/5pkp/8/5K1p/2P4N/P3Bn2/8 w – – 0 1
Both Komodo and Stockfish say Nxf2, leaving white way behind in development. There is, however, a better move that wins the game for white, eventually.
Wonderful!Can not find out if you don’t say that there is a better move.1.Bh5+ Kxh5 (1…Kg7 2.Nxf2 should win easily)2.Kf5 Nxh3 3.Nd5 Rf7 4.c4 b6 5.a4 Rf8 6.c5 bxc5 7.a5 c4 8.a6 c3 9.a7 c2 10.a8=Q c1=Q 11.Qe8+ Rxe8 12.Nxf6#
Some variations are possible but not significant.
Once again you have this one correct sir. The king can’t capture the bishop because of 2. Kf5 Nxh3 3. Nd5 Rf7 and white marches the pawns to an easy queen to blacks paralyzed position. I think the best move for black is 1… kg7, allowing white to capture the f2 knight.
You would expect that today’s programs would eventually find the solution to both this problem and the one from a few days back- it is a question of what the program recognizes as a winning position being a bit too far into the future of a given line. A human can make the intuitive observation (or, at a minimum- a guess!) that after 3. ….Rf7 in today’s Vian puzzle, that white is going to win by queening a pawn and diverting the rook’s guard on f6.
I found this puzzle to be much easier than the previous one where white won by sacrificing the queen for the knight- it was far easier for me to visualize the paralysis after black’s third move preventing the mate. In the previous puzzle, I was, and still am, unconvinced that white could win it since black’s degree of freedom was a bit higher, thus making me more uncertain of the outcome.
Once again you have this one correct sir. The king can’t capture the bishop because of 2. Kf5 Nxh3 3. Nd5 Rf7 and white marches the pawns to an easy queen to blacks paralyzed position. I think the best move for black is 1… kg7, allowing white to capture the f2 knight.
I apologize, the last comment was for PROF.S.G.BHAT.
In the previous position,
4q1kr/p6p/1prQPppB/4n3/4P3/2P5/PP2B2P/R5K1 w – – 0 1
It’s a drawn game regardless of what white does, i.e. Qa3 or Qxe5. The white king has little protection and black can get a perpetual check in the worse case scenario. My main reason for positing these puzzles is because people are knocking the chess engines for not finding these so-called great moves. In my investigation, most of these claims are based on human error, not solid moves. The latest position appears to be solid. Although the engines didn’t find the correct move, Bh5+, they pick up on what’s happening when the move is played and the score for white goes from a deficit to a favorable plus. I’m happy that you find these easy because that’s a clear indication that you are a strong player. America is lacking in strong players these days, other than Nakamura, Robson, So Caruana, etc.. on an international scale. That’s not to say we don’t have a few but we should have more in my humble opinion…
I figured out why Stockfish didn’t get the right move on the following position.
8/1pN4r/5pkp/8/5K1p/2P4N/P3Bn2/8 w – – 0 1
The MultiPV, located in the #1 or #2 engine setting, was set at 1. I increased it to 4 and behold, it found the correct move. I knew that this was either a software or hardware issue because there are no in-betweens in the computer world. I’m aware that the software has a total of 2 to the 64th power of computational abilities. That’s a large number for the software to be missing good moves. The default setting of the MultiPV is restrictive on the software’s ability to calculate in the same manner as if I only had one CPU and 1 GIG of RAM for it to run on.
John.
You are right about options you place on computational ability.Some , you are given option,some are inbuilt. If the computational speed goes up due to innovations in hardware software also can keep pace.A mismatch would take more time which you will call as infinite loop.
I’m not sure which position you are referring to. Normally I figure the puzzles out without any assistance. With Stockfish, Komodo, Rybka and Houdini I like to search for the hard positions that people are discrediting the engines for not finding the appropriate move and see if there is any validity in their claims. I’m always hearing the negatives but nobody ever claims, with proof, how they can play against these engines and win. Thus far, I’m discovering that the majority, if not all, of these claims are bogus. I’ve found human error in many of them and low computer resources in others, (such as CPU power, RAM, 32 bit software and proprietary brand computers like Dell, e-machines and other junky computers) One doesn’t have to take my word for it, just ask Hikaru Nakamura how vicious Stockfish and Komodo really are. His email is hikarupress@gmail.com
John,
It is this problem I am refeering to.
r2q2kr/p1p2p1p/1p3p1B/2b1n3/2ppN1b1/2P2N2/PP3PPP/R2QR1K1 w – – 0 1
I tried in that site without much analysis with the following interaction with the engine in the site.
1.Nxe5 f5 2.Nxg4 fxe4 3.Qf3 Be7 4.Rxe4 Qd5 5.Rxe7 Qxf3 6.exf3 f5 7.Nf6#
Actually i did it along with some other serious work on the computer and I don’t think it is best for either side.
Thanks for refreshing my memory. This is just one of the ways that we can obtain checkmate but it’s never done in 5 moves. It’s the computer at the web sight that plays f5, making mate in 5 impossible. This puzzle was posted at Chess,com and, of course, black played 1…Bxe1. I’m calling it mate in 5 based on human error and not on solid tactics. However, I always leave myself open to the fact that I could be wrong but the more I study this position the less open I am in thinking that I’m in any sort of error…
ROOK CH . bISHOP CH AND ROOK CH MATE
Exchanging 2nd and 3rd moves is also a solution
Oh!My!
Interchanging seems to be proper word.
Transposing/transposition is the usual selection in chess for English, however.
Yancey,
I am well aware of the word transpose used in chess.Either I didn’t get the word at hand or I felt “transpose” refers to the position arrived at.I was simply referring to changing the order of the moves which did not result in the same final position.
1) Rh8; Kf7 – 2) Re7+; Q:e7 – 3) Bg6 # Only and fast solution.
Gilberto,
In addition to the two solutions given, there are two more replacing the action of B/R by Q in the final move. All are equally fast.(Thank God! You did not use the word fastest, if so all are fastest)
In my quest to find a position that the engines are unable to find the right move, well, I found one.
8/1pN4r/5pkp/8/5K1p/2P4N/P3Bn2/8 w – – 0 1
Both Komodo and Stockfish say Nxf2, leaving white way behind in development. There is, however, a better move that wins the game for white, eventually.
Wonderful!Can not find out if you don’t say that there is a better move.1.Bh5+ Kxh5 (1…Kg7 2.Nxf2 should win easily)2.Kf5 Nxh3 3.Nd5 Rf7 4.c4 b6 5.a4 Rf8 6.c5 bxc5 7.a5 c4 8.a6 c3 9.a7 c2 10.a8=Q c1=Q 11.Qe8+ Rxe8 12.Nxf6#
Some variations are possible but not significant.
Once again you have this one correct sir. The king can’t capture the bishop because of 2. Kf5 Nxh3 3. Nd5 Rf7 and white marches the pawns to an easy queen to blacks paralyzed position. I think the best move for black is 1… kg7, allowing white to capture the f2 knight.
You would expect that today’s programs would eventually find the solution to both this problem and the one from a few days back- it is a question of what the program recognizes as a winning position being a bit too far into the future of a given line. A human can make the intuitive observation (or, at a minimum- a guess!) that after 3. ….Rf7 in today’s Vian puzzle, that white is going to win by queening a pawn and diverting the rook’s guard on f6.
I found this puzzle to be much easier than the previous one where white won by sacrificing the queen for the knight- it was far easier for me to visualize the paralysis after black’s third move preventing the mate. In the previous puzzle, I was, and still am, unconvinced that white could win it since black’s degree of freedom was a bit higher, thus making me more uncertain of the outcome.
Once again you have this one correct sir. The king can’t capture the bishop because of 2. Kf5 Nxh3 3. Nd5 Rf7 and white marches the pawns to an easy queen to blacks paralyzed position. I think the best move for black is 1… kg7, allowing white to capture the f2 knight.
I apologize, the last comment was for PROF.S.G.BHAT.
In the previous position,
4q1kr/p6p/1prQPppB/4n3/4P3/2P5/PP2B2P/R5K1 w – – 0 1
It’s a drawn game regardless of what white does, i.e. Qa3 or Qxe5. The white king has little protection and black can get a perpetual check in the worse case scenario. My main reason for positing these puzzles is because people are knocking the chess engines for not finding these so-called great moves. In my investigation, most of these claims are based on human error, not solid moves. The latest position appears to be solid. Although the engines didn’t find the correct move, Bh5+, they pick up on what’s happening when the move is played and the score for white goes from a deficit to a favorable plus. I’m happy that you find these easy because that’s a clear indication that you are a strong player. America is lacking in strong players these days, other than Nakamura, Robson, So Caruana, etc.. on an international scale. That’s not to say we don’t have a few but we should have more in my humble opinion…
I figured out why Stockfish didn’t get the right move on the following position.
8/1pN4r/5pkp/8/5K1p/2P4N/P3Bn2/8 w – – 0 1
The MultiPV, located in the #1 or #2 engine setting, was set at 1. I increased it to 4 and behold, it found the correct move. I knew that this was either a software or hardware issue because there are no in-betweens in the computer world. I’m aware that the software has a total of 2 to the 64th power of computational abilities. That’s a large number for the software to be missing good moves. The default setting of the MultiPV is restrictive on the software’s ability to calculate in the same manner as if I only had one CPU and 1 GIG of RAM for it to run on.
John.
You are right about options you place on computational ability.Some , you are given option,some are inbuilt. If the computational speed goes up due to innovations in hardware software also can keep pace.A mismatch would take more time which you will call as infinite loop.
John,
Did you use proper MultiPv option for the mate in 5 problem,while black plays …. f5 instead of ….. Bxd1?
I’m not sure which position you are referring to. Normally I figure the puzzles out without any assistance. With Stockfish, Komodo, Rybka and Houdini I like to search for the hard positions that people are discrediting the engines for not finding the appropriate move and see if there is any validity in their claims. I’m always hearing the negatives but nobody ever claims, with proof, how they can play against these engines and win. Thus far, I’m discovering that the majority, if not all, of these claims are bogus. I’ve found human error in many of them and low computer resources in others, (such as CPU power, RAM, 32 bit software and proprietary brand computers like Dell, e-machines and other junky computers) One doesn’t have to take my word for it, just ask Hikaru Nakamura how vicious Stockfish and Komodo really are. His email is hikarupress@gmail.com
John,
It is this problem I am refeering to.
r2q2kr/p1p2p1p/1p3p1B/2b1n3/2ppN1b1/2P2N2/PP3PPP/R2QR1K1 w – – 0 1
I tried in that site without much analysis with the following interaction with the engine in the site.
1.Nxe5 f5 2.Nxg4 fxe4 3.Qf3 Be7 4.Rxe4 Qd5 5.Rxe7 Qxf3 6.exf3 f5 7.Nf6#
Actually i did it along with some other serious work on the computer and I don’t think it is best for either side.
Thanks for refreshing my memory. This is just one of the ways that we can obtain checkmate but it’s never done in 5 moves. It’s the computer at the web sight that plays f5, making mate in 5 impossible. This puzzle was posted at Chess,com and, of course, black played 1…Bxe1. I’m calling it mate in 5 based on human error and not on solid tactics. However, I always leave myself open to the fact that I could be wrong but the more I study this position the less open I am in thinking that I’m in any sort of error…
What I’m wondering is: Why did Black underpromote to rook? Because Black has three rooks…
The third rook is imported/captured in previous encounter.