It is clear that Bobby Fischer is the greatest player in US history. But who else would you rank as the top 5 greatest players who play(ed) for the US?
Here are some random choices:
– Morphy
– Reshevsky
– Christiansen
– Fine
– R. Byrne
– Kamsky
– Nakamura
– DeFirmian
– Benjamin
– Evans
– Steinitz
– Seirawan
– Pillsbury
– Marshall
– Kavalek
– Gulko
– Browne
– Alburt
– Shabalov
– Your choice?
Chess Daily News from Susan Polgar
Pilsbury and Morphy no doubt. That leaves us with 2 spots left: One for Susan Polgar and the other for Gata Kamsky. The others have all my respect: Rashevsky and Fine are 2 more names to be considered in the top 5.
Morphy, Reshevsky, Marshall, Fine, and Pilsbury.
Morphy, Reshevsky, Pillsbury, and Seirawan.
Marshall, Reshevsky, Kamsky, Morphy.
Jud McCranie said…
Morphy, Reshevsky, Marshall, Fine, and Pilsbury.
I agree.
GM Susan Polgar
Morphy, Reshevsky, Marshall, Browne would round out my top 5 with Fischer. Seirawan, Kamsky, Benjamin, Christiansen, Shabalov would be on my 2nd five.
pillsbury and morphy, no doubt. pillsbury was awesome at his peak. i think he could have toppled lasker at his peak had he not started with chess so late and suffred from weak health.
Did Pal Benko play for the US? How about Var Akobian?
Morphy, Reshevsky, Kamsky, Marshall. Pillsbury was also great, but his achievements are difficult to rank : incredible talent but strange career (like many others american prodigies).
What is needed is a rating system that can ‘work backwards’ to pre-Elo and pre-Ingo days.
http://db.chessmetrics.com/CM2/PeakList.asp?Params= sheds some light on this, even if the theoretical basis for the Chessmetrics approach is not the best.
Here are given the best 3 years in the top 100 players’ careers (starting January nnnn) and their ratings in the Chessmetrics metric:
2867 1971-01.. Fischer, 2
2806 1900-01.. Pillsbury, 10
2776 1952-01.. Reshevsky, 20
2765 1994-01.. Kamsky, 27
2759 1916-01.. Marshall, 29
2756 1939-01.. Fine, 32
2716 1859-01.. Morphy, 84
2704 1976-01.. Gulko, 100
For comparison:
2874 1989-01.. Kasparov, 1
2725 2002-01.. J Polgar, 67
There are better rating schemes that ‘reach back’ but they haven’t crunched the data yet.
Morphy and Pillsbury. No doubt in my mind. However, I would place Morphy as the “best” American player in U.S. history with Fischer being a close second.
Why? Well, in order to deduce a player’s strength you can only compare him/her to the best players he/she could play against during his lifetime/career.
Morphy was clearly light years ahead of the best players in America and Europe that he is the best.
Fischer, though such a genius, was not as far ahead of the best players in the world during his life as Morphy was.
Both were great. It’s a tough choice…but, I would say Morphy is the best ever and Fischer is a closer second with Pillsbury being number 3.
Morphy, Pillsbury, Reshevsky, Kamsky and some relative nonentity or not yet great player.
Selecting only from players who have passed on and whose legacy is easier to assess due to time:
Morphy – first great American player; most amateurs can still learn a lot playing his games, and few pros has had as good a natural feel for the initiative
Pillsbury – one of the best, in the top 2-3 of his time. Another top US player whose full potential didn’t manifest
Marshall – helped to popularize the game, established NYC as the center of American chess. Though not among the very best ever in the world, still a great representative of US chess, especially in the preWWII olympiads
Reshevksy – for most of the 1930-1950 he was the only serious contender except for Fine. A scrappy and dogged player.
Fischer and Morphy – both world champions.
Marshall, Reshevsky, Fine, Seirawan, Kamsky – all world champion candidates.
Unbelievable that no one has mentioned Steinitz, who as a naturalized US citizen, was the first American World Champion.
1 Fischer
2 Morphy
3 Steinitz
3 Pillsbury
4 Reshevsky
5 Kamsky
Richard Reich, MD
Given that we are allowed 4 others only, I pick Morphy, Pillsbury, Reshevsky, Fine.
I’m rather surprised that no one else has picked just these 4; they seem obvious to me.
Yeah, good point about Steinitz. If he counts, I’ll replace Fine with him on my list.
Top 10 Americans After Fischer:
1. Samuel Reshevsky
2. Frank Marshall
3. Paul Morphy
4. Harry Nelson Pillsbury
5. Reuben Fine
6. Jackson W. Showalter
7. Geroge Henry Mackenzie
8. James Mason
9. Walter Browne
10. Arthur Bisguier
I still consider Steinitz more of an Austrian player than American.
I didn’t know Stenitiz’ connection with the USA, so if he is added to the Chessmetrics 3-yr-high list, we have:
2794 1884-01.. Steinitz, 15
and so the 3-yr peak order is:
Fischer, Pillsbury, Steinitz, Reshevsky, Kamsky, Marshall, Fine, Morphy, Gulko (1-9)
To see how robust this USA-order is, compare with Chessmetrics’ top-100 rankings for peaks over different periods of time.
Steinitz was a U.S. citizen so, despite the fact that many Europeans hate this fact: Steinitz was an American World Chess Champion. Period.
He was a legal, documented, American Citizen while he was World champ. Therefore, he was an American WCC and I’m sick of hearing people say Fischer was the “first.” No.
Morphy was undoubtedly the best player on Earth during his brief career and was called the “chess champion of the world” by people as dignified as the son of President Martin Van Buren. Even Andderrson regarded him as the “best.”
But, hate it as much as you want…Steinitz was an AMERICAN CITIZEN, and AMERICAN while he was the WCC. Therefore, he was an American WCC before Fischer.
And that is the facts of history.
Europe might hate this fact as they hate the U.S. today…but it doesn’t change the facts. Steinitz was an American world chess champion because he held the title while he was officially and American citizen.
Period.
And that’s the way it is.
You forgot to repeat it one more time.
And you are making way to many periods.
Do you have a period?
The results that Chessmetrics comes up with before 1950 are shockingly bad (eg see Lasker).
I simply would not use them for any purpose, such as that above. They will just be misleading.
Chessmetrics has not really crunched the data either. The pre-1950 data used is seriously deficient. But this is not the only problem with the way these ratings are constructed.
Anonymous 6 May, 6:39 AM is right. Something like a backdate of Elo ratings [with improvements] to, say, 1851 is required.
The best five USA.
1.Morphy
2.Fischer
3.Marshall
4.Pillsbury
5.Fine
The best five all time.
1.Morphy
2.Capablanca
3.Alekhine
4.Fischer
5.Kasparov / Karpov
What was that bit about Steinitz being an American again?
Paul C. Morphy “The Kind of chess”, the one and only. No Fritz, no chess books, no chess coach. Only its marvelous brain.
Bobby Fischer is a disgrace for the United States and as player and world champion a BADLY AMBASSADOR of the chess, a badly example for the children and non social behavior.
God bless America
steinitz was in fact austrian and born in prague
steinitz was in fact austrian and born in prague
Yes, but he applied for US citizenship before contesting his first world championship. By his own choice, he was American. I don’t see the problem in calling him an “American World Champion.”
1. Morphy
2. Steinitz
3. Reshevsky
4. Pillsbury
… Kamsky…Marshall
Although Steinitz was not yet an American citizen officially, during his match with Zukertort (1886), he wanted the U.S flag to be placed next to him during the match. (What more can you say?!)
He was given U.S citizenship on Nov. 23, 1888. He lost the World Championship to Lasker in 1894. Therefore, by all accounts he was an American citizen prior to the match with Lasker (1894).
So, it’s Paul Morphy the first American World Champion by consensus.
Wilhelm Steinitz the first American World Champion before the advent of FIDE.
Of course, the KIng Of Chess, Bobby Fischer, the first American World Champion (FIDE World Champion)